STEVEN J. PANKRATZ
NOVEMBER 27, 2006
Modern Talmudic Judaism about Daniel 9
This understanding of Modern Talmudic Judaism about Daniel 9 was determined by the reading of literature from multiple Talmudic Jewish sources, but all of it can be collaborated at either the “http://www.jewsforjudaism.org” and/or “http://www.messiahtruth.com” websites.
The first difference that the Talmudic Anti missionaries exclaim is that you must use the real “Jewish calender” as a starting point in the year 422 BCE, which disagrees with the traditional secular understanding on the year for the destruction of the temple by 166 years. This was determined by “Messiah Truth” by the reading of “The oldest record of Jewish chronology” which they claim is the “Seder Olam Rabbah” Further more they claim that it “was edited by Yose ben Halafta, who died in the year 160 CE.”.[1] This chronology only lists 4 Persian kings over a span of 52 years as opposed to the Secular and widely accepted chronology of 12 kings over 230 years. This information is then collaborated by using some Egyptian cartouches and Daniel 11:1-3. My reading of their text renders a difference of 173 years not 166. The mental exercises required to follow and understand this thinking is mind numbing to say the least and is very hard to follow. To further confuse matters they insist that the number of years is actually split into two periods, one of 62 weeks of years with a second period of 7 weeks of years and not 69 weeks of years as most messianic believers understand it. By dividing the 69 weeks into 62 weeks and then another 7, this allows them to decide that there will be two anointed ones and not one messiah. They further claim that the first messiah was Cyrus, with the second one being Antiochus IV Epiphanes, a Selucid Greek leader.[2]
In order to come to these conclusions their translation of the text differs greatly from that of mainstream Christianity. One of the many of these differences is in the manner that the numbers are rendered. Three different translations of Daniel 9:26 demonstrate this and are shown below.[3]
KJV
And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
NIV
After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed.
Rabbinic “correct” translation
Then, after the sixty two septets, an anointed one will be cut off and will exist no longer; the people of a prince will come, and will destroy the city and the Sanctuary; but its end will be like a flood. Then, until the end of war, desolation is decreed.
In addition to the differences about the counting of the years, the above samples of translation differences points out the rabbinic idea that the verses talk about “a” messiah and not “The” Messiah. While there are many possible examples of these differences in translation, the above will be sufficient for the scope of our conversation.
Another major influence of Talmudic understanding of Daniel 9 is
that Daniel is not considered a prophet, but a interpreter of dreams
and visions like Joseph. They would propose that Daniel as an
interpreter of dreams and visions makes a calculation mistake in his
understanding of Jeremiah 29:10. This mistaken interpretation is
what “Messiah Truth” claims that Daniel is describing in Daniel 9.[4]
In summary the Anti-missionary ideas are that the “correct” Jewish calender is different then the secular one, that there are 2 periods of time, that there are 2 messiahs, that Christians mis-translate the scripture and that Daniel is not a prophet, allowing the Anti missionary to understand that Daniel 9 is a mistaken interpretation of a prophecy, and not itself a prophecy.
In order for a follower of Messiah to demonstrate the Messianic understanding of Daniel 9 to a Jewish person that has been “educated” by Anti missionary organizations like “Jews for Judaism” or “Messiah Truth” he needs to understand the cumulative effect of the very different understanding that they have been taught as touched on above.
The Christian understanding of Daniel 9
The Modern Christian understanding of Daniel 9, is that Daniel 9 contains a prophecy about the coming of the Messiah Yeshua. While Christianity agrees on the major points, there are many disagreements on the minor points. We will focus on the major points that most Christians agree on, which are as follows: [5] [6] [7]
1 That Daniel 9 clearly points to the time that Yeshua would come.
2 That it talks about 69 weeks of years.
3 That these years start with “the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem”.
4 That this Messiah would then be killed.
In (Daniel 9:25 NIV) we read that the Messiah would come 69 sevens (483 years) after “the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem”. There are three possible dates for when this starts, three decrees by two different Persian rulers are mentioned in the Bible.
In 539 BCE, Cyrus issued a law that allowed Jewish people to start rebuilding the temple. Later Artaxerxes issued two decrees. The one in 458 BC re-authorized the building of the temple. The second decree in 444 BC permitted the reconstruction of both the temple and the city of Jerusalem. Testing the various dates we discover the following 538 BCE +483 years results in around 55 BCE. If we start with 458 BCE and add 483 years to it, this ends up around 25 CE. And when we start in 444 BCE and add the 483 years to it this ends up in 38CE. While neither 25 CE or 38 CE are the exact year that Yeshua Died, They are both very close and there are a multitude of ways that have been used to attempt clear up this difference.
This prophecy then predicts that the Messiah would be “cut off” after the 69th “seven,” but before the 70th seven in Daniel 9:26-27. What this further demonstrates is that Daniel not only gave us the time frame that the Messiah would come in, but also that this Messiah would be “rejected” and then that he would be “cut off” before he would bring his kingdom of peace to Earth.[8] Who else can this be said about besides Yeshua our Lord and Savior.
Conclusion
As an apologetic tool Daniel 9 is a powerful tool, While some of the Talmudic arguments are powerful and hard to debate, none of these are show stoppers, that preclude Yeshua as a “The” Messiah. While those Talmudic Arguments that would have been show stoppers are much easier to refute. One of these, the much earlier Anti-missionary starting date is a stretch and is refutable, which will be demonstrated shortly. While the idea of two shorter periods appears to have some historical merit since the Essenes in Qumran understood it to be divided into 2 periods of time 62 weeks and 7 weeks, as this quote shows:
"'the mountains' are the prophets, they who were sent to proclaim God`s truth and to prophesy to all Israel. 'The messengers' is the Anointed of the spirit, of whom Daniel spoke; 'After the sixty-two weeks, a Messiah shall be cut off. The 'messenger who brings good news, who announces Salvation' is the one of whom it is written."[9]
In the above we can see that the Essenes believed that Daniel was talking about the Messiah that would 'bring good news' and 'who announces Salvation'. We also can see that the Rabbis thought that this was Messianic in nature when they warned in Sanhedrin 97b against calculating the time of the Messiah.
Perish all those who calculate the end, for men will say, since the predicted end is here and the Messiah has not come, he will never come![10]
Rashi's Comments also show that he understood Daniel 9 to be about “the King Messiah”.[11]
Not only did the Rabbis know that Daniel was a prophet, but we also know that the well know historian Josephus in Antiquities 10:11:7 thought so as well:
We believe that Daniel conversed with God; for he did not only prophecy of future events, as did the other prophets, but also determined the time of their accomplishment.
Since we know that Daniel is a Prophet and ancient Jews considered him such, this means that Daniel would not have “misinterpreted” Zechariah, since a true prophet cannot be wrong. If Daniel didn't misinterpret Zechariah, then the date chosen by Messiah truth as a start date, would no longer make any sense, thus eliminating this early date. If we follow the reckoning of the Anti missionaries on the 2 periods of time idea (7 weeks and 62 weeks) , but start at one of the later two decree dates, while recognizing Daniel as a prophet, the ending date would still come very close to the time of Yeshua's ministries here on earth. One could even yield to their dual messiah theory, with the first being an “anointed one” and the second the “Anointed One” and this still works with Yeshua being the Messiah talked about by Daniel. This idea that Daniel 9 is prophesying about “The Messiah” and not “a messiah” is further collaborated by both the oldest and the newest Jewish translations. The oldest Jewish translation, the Septuagint, translates “Mashiah” as “ Tou Christou” ('The Anointed One') and the Newest translation, the Stone edition, translates it as “The Anointed One” not “an anointed one”.[12]
What I have demonstrated is that in this case, when one looks at the arguments of the Anti missionaries, they don't often agree with the ancient historical Jewish teachings, and once one removes one of their argument points, another one quickly falls and this sometimes causes a domino effect that ends up pointing the Anti missionary right at Yeshua. And when the dust finally clears the other Ideas that they had presented, only ended up being a lot of superfluous noise, like a clanging cymbal, that wont change the major facts about Yeshua one way or the other in the end, and if we dig deep enough, we might even learn a little from this noise. But remember to the Anti Missionary there is emotional cry that they will always return to in the end and that is “Anybody but Yeshua!” and they will say anything to make that point, Since to the Talmudic Jew, “Jesus is not for the Jews”.
Bibliography
11Q13 of the “dead sea scrolls”. accessed November 26 2006, available from; http://www.gnosis.org/library/commelc.htm
Brown, Michael Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus Vol Three, Baker Book house, 2003.
De Haan, Mart “A Prediction” In Been Thinking About [on line news letter] May 1, 2005,
accessed November 25, 2006; available from http://www.rbc.org/been_thinking_about/05/01/05.aspx
Exell, Joseph S. 'The Biblical Illustrator, Daniel volume' Baker Book House, May 1977 edition.
Fruchtenbaum, Arnold G., “The Messianic Timetable”[online article],
accessed November 25, 2006; available from http://www.messiahnj.org/af-timetable.htm
Ishtov, Shlomo, JESUS IN DANIEL 9: A 'WEEK' PROPHECY, 'JESUSINDANIEL9.pdf', Messiah Truth Project, 2003.
Sanhedrin 97b.
Sigal, Gerald. Jews for Judaism FAQ, accessed November 25, 2006;
available from http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/faq120.html
(accessed November 25, 2006).
